Markus30
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Registered: 08-2005
Posts: 664
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Re: Article about Hand Layup versus Machine.
I think the machine layup may be somewhat better. One thing I think that could happen would be doing a poor job with the machine layup as thinking the machine will "fix" any mistakes that the person would make. I could just see someone not using as much care with a machine as they would doing hand layup.
I am not sure if what I think is true though. I think it may have more to do with volume of masks made rather than durability. Making lots of masks would be easier with a two piece mold but I couldnt see making custom masks that way as it would take alot more time. If Tony himself layed up everymask he makes I don't think he would be able to sell his masks at his current prices.
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8/29/2006, 6:06 pm
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MONTREALER
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Registered: 09-2005
Posts: 2208
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Re: Article about Hand Layup versus Machine.
Guys:
about that "article" - it's clearly something created by a copywriting / marketing writer. The overall tone is strictly "marketing". It's "disguised" as an article so as to look more "information-oriented". The Internet (and your mailbox) is probably plastered with this kind of verbiage.
1- make it look like information
2- lay large claims and/or make big promises
3- avoid any real details
4- hype it some more
It's not really "straight information" the way it's meant to look - this kind of writing is meant to create an effect and make a pre-disposed potential buyer to react (with an order $$$) rather than inform someone who has absolutely no intention of buying anyway. Possibly one of the many reasons Tony has a hard time keeping up with demand...
So - - -
What is a "machine layup" anyway??
Is it just a 2 part mold with vacuum-bagging?
And why is it supposed to be faster than by hand?
Last edited by MONTREALER, 8/29/2006, 8:45 pm
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8/29/2006, 8:17 pm
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goalie21
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Registered: 12-2005
Posts: 2466
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Re: Article about Hand Layup versus Machine.
Montrealer is as usual correct - strictly a marketing article. An interesting debate that ensued though. The bottome line no matter whom has made the mask- is in reality "the mask" itself. Hand/ machine -who cares - what is the quality of the finished product??? I've known individuals whom have spent 40 plus hours working on a mask and no machine would do a better job. Harrsion would spend hours just doing the cutouts and none of his masks were ever top heavy etc. There are so many factors and little touches and nuiances that any maskmaker on this board knows goes into making a great mask. I used to have this discussion all the time with Dennis when he worked with Cubberly. Every change that Cubberly made in an attempt to improve his mask I wanted to know why -what prompted that change - what was the best materials to use and the ratio's of one material to another that would create the strongest yet also a light mask. I would think and Gary would confirm there is alot of trial and error in a constant effort to improve one's product -an evolution of sorts. Each maker has their own way of doing things and of course their own little 'secrets' and the bottom line there are a number of very good choices out there!!!
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8/30/2006, 12:56 pm
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MotownMasks
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Registered: 02-2006
Posts: 225
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Re: Article about Hand Layup versus Machine.
Here's my two cents on Machine vs. Hand Layup:
Composites were developed to compete and eliminate problems with metal, metalworking( welding,shaping,weight etc.) They've always been touted as a completely MOLDABLE substance that when cured, will often exceed the strength of steel.
Anyone whos done any work with a can of resin, and a roll of cloth from the local hardware store knows how tough it is to mold composites into the shape you want.Its tough to even get the stuff to patch your car fender with professional results--------in other words,the technique of working the material usually leads to an out of shape peice of work-----------or an inherently weak product.
By the mid 1980's, more stringent hands-on criteria was developed for the actual work with the materials---------newer cloths, different epoxies, or resins,and the introduction of vaccuum bagging, and variable cure times. This was supposed to result in a better stronger composite form.
However, as far as goalie masks go, the standard has always been,the masks produced in the late 60's, right thru about 1985.
Those are the masks we try to replicate, and if we can, exceed their original toughness,thus having the perfect mask.
It would be swell to use the latest most exotic materials,and be able to have two sided molds for each mask,(and devote the time to create each form),and have a vaaccuum system,and oven to carefully control the composite cure process, so that in the end, your form would absolutely conform to all manufacturer tensil strength ratings(the perfect mask).
The cost for even one mask would be astronomical------and its not even economically feasible if yoou're doing one offs of a custom for any goalie.
By the way, ANY mask is intrinsically flawed, because by design we add eyeholes, and ventilation holes----and this actually weakens the structure, and corrupts the strength------never mind being struck directly in the eye.
I feel that guys who are willing to go the more "machine route",and worry about meeting all their materials potential, are relying on what the composite supplier is telling them what will be strongest-IN THEORY. As well-----they have enough experience to know how difficult and time consuming hand layup can be-----striving for the cookie cutter,no stress mask, while creating a THEORETICALLY stronger mask.
One thing I have seen in industrial use of composites----theres a bad one in every bunch---------sometimes whole batches.I've seen everytype of cracked, chipped,delaminated combo style mask since mass production came into vogue.
The original masks were products of meticulous craftsman----and not that many actually failed.By its design, we could all lose teeth,get cut or concussed, or suffer an eye injury---ITS IN THE DESIGN!
However, there are some really great materials available today----by theory, Harrison could make great STRONG masks today,hand laying up, just as he did years ago,using superior materials, and making better masks.
I think it comes down to meticulous craftsmanship, and patience.Hand layup allows for hands on oversight of the integrity of the form-----something out of a production mold doesnt allow that----it just OUGHT to be OK. When done with passion, and attention to detail and composite integrity----todays maskmakers, with todays materials can hand-layup a superior mask to the originals-----no machine construction needed.
If you're that worried about mask failure-----you should probably wear a helmet and cage(Yuck!)
Kevin Motownmasks
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9/1/2006, 10:35 pm
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buster5
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Registered: 07-2006
Posts: 14
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Re: Article about Hand Layup versus Machine.
Kevin..
Nicely said! BTW..I'm new here, do you have pro clients? Is Motownmask the name of your company? If so, do you have a website.
Last edited by buster5, 9/3/2006, 9:24 am
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9/2/2006, 7:07 pm
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MotownMasks
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Registered: 02-2006
Posts: 225
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Re: Article about Hand Layup versus Machine.
Hi Buster---thanks for the compliment. I dont have a website-----Im not computer saavvy. I struggle just to post pictures on this board. However-----I have built and worn my own masks since 1980, and worked in the acft industry, where I learned my high level composite knowledge. I currently build 6 styles of masks--Higgins, Liut, Bannerman, Dion,Lindbergh, and a combo.I have at least 2 ofeach of these masks completed,waiting for topcoating finishing in my workshop, as I write this. Most of my customers are fellow goalies in the leagues I play in----though there is a board member-Rick G. who has two of my masks. There are at least 15-20 other guys along the eastern seaboard who own one of my masks, since 1980, as I usually traded them for equipment,I couldnt afford to buy.
I like to do the custom mold thing---better fit----but I dont see any masks I would rather wear other than my own. I Strive for "the look"---but REQUIRE strength.There's alot of masks out there that are just great paintjobs----and filler.Thats how I got a lot of my customers---and thats just by word of mouth---largely before internet---and Im always busy with a mask project.
Standyby---I hope to get some of my masks posted on this site within 2 weeks----else---check with Rick G. on this site----he's got two of my masks, and he's asking about another.
Regards, Kevin Motownmasks
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9/4/2006, 8:06 pm
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